Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Use this thread to share technique tips or ask questions of the experts. Also discuss boat modifications and rig tuning.
bristollad
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:32 am
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Location: bristol

Re: Mast alternative at no cost

Postby bristollad » Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:23 pm

Rick wrote:
bristollad wrote:But we have a new mast already and it's being tested as we speak which has the new track and top section so why is it still being proposed we have a new mast ?


Jason; you were at the meeting and heard Chris speak; he was very clear that change, if any, would be controlled by the class.

We have had the mast track issue for some time and tried a number of things and still we have the problem.

The new track is under test; I was sailing with it at the Nationals and so far so good but further testing needs to be done to build confidence that this is a solution.

I saw no differences in performance and the sail still went up and down fine.

As the problem has been ongoing Chris also offered to pursue an alternative solution which was a different mast (and whilst he was doing that he figured he may as well trial a different mainsail).

When looking to solve this problem far better to back two horses than one.

Your opinion on maintaining the status quo is perfectly valid and others on this thread also support that; and others are in favour of updating the rig.

Each opinion is valid and I hope all will respect each others point of view as we move through the evaluation of the various options.

When we have more experience of the options we as a class we get to make the call as to which solution we think best fits the class and the members.





just change the batten pockets problem solved

Gavryn
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:34 pm
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Gavryn » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:58 pm

Hi all,
This seems to be hot topic at the moment, from my experience in the Musto there was only one problem and that was the mast track! And in my opinion the mast track braking was not due to the track or the batten ends but due to people now winding a lot more tension onto the batten forcing the betten end to be hard up against the track this making the track break on a gybe.
I don't think that the class needs a new mast as we are not a developmental class!
The boat looks great the sail looks ok could do with new colour options!
If it's not broke don't fix it think of all the people in the class who can't afford to upgrade all of the time and not only that if someone beats you on the water with a new mast or sail everyone will be talking he only beat me because he had the new kit!!!!!

Rant over!

Gav

User avatar
paul manning
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:02 am
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Contact:

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby paul manning » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:01 pm

Great to see the initial thoughts. It's good to talk and discuss options, that way opinions are shared and understood!
Paul Manning
MSCA Secretary

Phone 0044 (0)7843 269353
Fax 0044 (0)1621 785735
paulsmanning01@gmail.com
http://www.mustoskiff.com

User avatar
Rick
Site Admin
Posts: 3160
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:48 pm
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Location: Millbank, UK
Contact:

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Rick » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:09 pm

Gavryn wrote:Hi all,
This seems to be hot topic at the moment, from my experience in the Musto there was only one problem and that was the mast track! And in my opinion the mast track braking was not due to the track or the batten ends but due to people now winding a lot more tension onto the batten forcing the betten end to be hard up against the track this making the track break on a gybe.


Gav,

In the 2015 survey we discovered that 45% of people had broken tracks at some point.

Of those who have broken tracks many have done so many times. See below.

How many times?
1 28.38%
2 12.16%
3 6.76%
4 14.86%
5 9.46%
6 + 28.38%

This clearly shows there is a problem.

I used to think that excessive batten tension contributed to this but now I think it is more caused by a random act that occurs during a pitchpole capsize or a vicious gybe where the sail slams across or the rig slams the water.

I have never broken a mast track but others have broken lots ... it is clearly a problem that needs a resolution as in general the boat is very tough and this seems to be the only repair you ever see in the dinghy park of a championships.
Rick Perkins. GBR

bristollad
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:32 am
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Location: bristol

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby bristollad » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:19 pm

Yep and now it seems to be sorted thanks to ovi and selden so no need for any kind of change other then the new mast they have kindly supplied to the class to trail

Daniel Henderson
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:50 pm
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Location: Stokes Bay

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Daniel Henderson » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:08 pm

I wouldn't class the new mast track supplied as a thoroughly tested bit of kit as yet. I think it has probably had 2 weeks of sailing so far. We also have to remember that the track is definitely not the only issue with this mast. The supplier in my opinion and I know many others a nightmare to deal with and a lot of people have had issues with the current mast. My new 1 for example is going back for a replacement due to the join being very loose, ( when they actually answer the phone or emails ) Steve had this problem on his new boat so it is a re occurring issue.
GBR557

Gavryn
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:34 pm
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Gavryn » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:31 pm

I have no doubt that Seldons are rubbish when trying to deal with them! But that is not the problem! I for one have an old boat in the fleet and I still have the original mast and had the original track until earlier this year and this was only replaced because it had come in stuck!
So if we actually look at this both the track has already changed from the one that I have on my boat to what is on boats from the 200 number upwards and has been changed again! Also the mast lay up has also been changed over the years 3 times since the boats have been built in my opinion this will have an impact of the characteristics of the mast none that I would ever see! So wither we like it or not the mast has been evolving over the years!!
I do think there is a problem with Seldon which needs to be addressed though!

I think we need to remember that we are a one class design! Other wise when do we stop! E.g. Who has broken a rack due to the rivits failing and crossion and yet were doing nothing about them!

User avatar
Rick
Site Admin
Posts: 3160
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:48 pm
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Location: Millbank, UK
Contact:

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Rick » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:30 pm

Gavryn wrote:! E.g. Who has broken a rack due to the rivits failing and crossion and yet were doing nothing about them!


I think rack failures are very rare; unlike tracks which have been detailed above with figures.

Boats will suffer ware and tear due to use and abuse but the track issue is a little more than that IMHO; although at the end of the day the members could choose to do nothing.

The mast has evolved as you observe but only in that finishing has changed to prevent the mounting holes for fittings suffering elongation. There have also been some quality control issues over track extrusions which we have ironed out over time. Performance wise I believe the mast is unchanged over the years.

The full evolution of the boat is documented here for reference which includes quite a few changes to mast fittings : http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/pro ... lution.htm

On the above page if you look at the photos of the gooseneck you will see 3 different mast finishes; the layup if identical in all cases just the final wrap changed to prevent hole creep.
Rick Perkins. GBR

Peter64
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 11:26 am
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Peter64 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:10 pm

There is obviously merit to all options here but, although I’m very new to the class, I do find myself drawn to the all-new rig. I haven’t experienced a mast-track failure myself but did have a compression failure of the top two sections. It took 2 months for Selden to replace the failed section. And including time spent in conversation with Ovi’s, Noble and Selden it took well over 3 months from when the mast broke to obtaining the replacement. The customer service I received from Selden, along with very recent experiences others have had with them leaves me with very little faith in them as a supplier that cares about the classes they build for.

I’ve seen mentioned here: (http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/new-rig-plans.html) that a different mast manufacturer is in the pipeline should Selden’s replacement option go awry. A change in manufacturer would be enough to keep me happy.

As for changing everything; I understand the reservations people might have for the effect of cost and retaining a one design status. I’d just like to mention the supernova class that has seen massive changes in the last few years. (I appreciate the skiff is an entirely different ball game). First they completely revamped the cockpit, completely opening the transom. Second, they changed construction materials to epoxy – boats are now >15kg lighter than the original. The boat has been treated to a new sail and adjustable lowers have been added. Although I’m still an active member of the supernova class, I find the fact that it still advertises itself as a one design class borderline criminal.

BUT… since these changes were made the class has grown, big style. At Bolton SC we went from having 6/7 to well over 30 boats in 2-3 years. At this year’s nationals, there were 120 boats and we hit the 100 boat mark for next year’s nationals only a month after opening entry. Believe it or not there has been NO LOSS in the quality of racing throughout the fleet, regardless of boat age. (The first ever production supernova finished 4th/120 this year, bloody good sailor mind!). the design changes do show better performances across the wind range and point of sail; this tends to even itself out over the course of a championship. The new boats filtered through the second-hand market very quickly and brought loads of new sailors into the class, despite the big hike in cost and the fact that the lighter boats are twitchier.

I’m no expert by any stretch of the imagination so I’m not really in a position to say how a new main will affect boat handling/speed/weight range etc. but I do think it’s worth considering that all the supernova class wanted to achieve was to improve cockpit drainage; those changes weren’t hugely welcome at the time either but the class is now a real winner. Worth pointing out that for a lot of the newcomers, the aesthetics was a big draw. And yes, the Musto does look a little dated to me, (then again that didn’t stop me buying one).
Apologies for rambling! :)

Daniel Henderson
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:50 pm
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Location: Stokes Bay

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Daniel Henderson » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:30 pm

No rambling Peter I thought that was a great insight in to a class that has done basically what we are talking about.
Seldens approach to things seems to be one of arrogance as they know it will be a tough decision for a class to make a big change. I think the supernova class is a great example on how an update has revolutionised the class and probably turned it into one of the biggest single handed fleets in the U.K.
GBR557

DangerBoy
Posts: 338
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:57 pm
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Location: Burghfield SC

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby DangerBoy » Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:57 pm

Might have been updated, never made it pretty though
Mark

sandyday
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:44 pm
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby sandyday » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:32 pm

As another new Musto owner, I can agree with much of what has gone before...

I wouldn't be too worried in principle about a change in the mainsail as long as the new one was A) similar in cost to the current one, and B) would set ok on the current mast. The musto main is reasonably priced (for example, its cheaper than my solo main...though as an aside I think the kite is a bit pricey), and sails are generally consumables anyway. Changing the mast manufacturer to improve reliability and/or customer service wouldn't bother me too much either, as long as performance didn't change significantly.

Given the cost of a mast, and the expectation that it will last a long time, I would be upset if a new mast in itself made a step change in performance, but unless the new mast was significantly different in weight and/or bend profile I guess that would be unlikely.

As an aside, as someone with more than a passing interest in yacht design, I would be interested to know what the technical basis of the argument for changing the main design would be, leaving aside the belief that square top mains are more fashionable / "modern"

The square top main shown in the original sketch has a very similar geometric aspect ratio (span^2/area) to the current main, so "efficiency" upwind (in terms of induced drag for aerodynamics enthusiasts) is only subtly different due to the change in planform shape and/or twist profile and may actually be very slightly less efficient.

The CE of the square top will be slightly higher than the current sail, giving more heeling moment for similar drive (possibly favouring heavier sailors) and there will be more weight higher up, adding to heeling and pitching moments.

Is the expectation that the square top gives an advantage in terms of more forgiving response in gusts? Or if not, then what?

bristollad
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:32 am
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Location: bristol

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby bristollad » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:04 am

Daniel Henderson wrote:No rambling Peter I thought that was a great insight in to a class that has done basically what we are talking about.
Seldens approach to things seems to be one of arrogance as they know it will be a tough decision for a class to make a big change. I think the supernova class is a great example on how an update has revolutionised the class and probably turned it into one of the biggest single handed fleets in the U.K.



but dan the super nova had to be updated as it was a poor design and numbers were getting worse we don't our numbers are growing year by year the boats are now cheap enough we are encouraging new talent into the class as they can pick a cheap boat up and be fast this will not be the case and will end up like the 49er

yea selden are crap but tell me a mast manufacture that is not cst and c tech i have heard stories about these guys as well and their products from what i can see the are bloody pricy since import costs are added and we have to remember that selden make thousands of masts for many boats and to be honest your bound to get one or to bad reports as thats just the nature of mass production,boat manufactures,fitting manufatcures
and trolly manufactures all suffer the same

as for the square top i am not really sure on how or why its been suggested to be honest it was the first i heard of it at carnac and also to bring in a smaller sail. the square top, performance wise well it don't take a rocket scientist to realise if you ad sail area at the top you will create more drag in windy days when de powering and bladeing off and also adding more weight at the top of the rig to support this sail just would make the so top heavy
also if you change the main well of course the kite will have to change by default
the current main work well and can be depowerd massivily
like i also said its a bit of a trade off now the light guys do well in the light stuff the heavier guys do well in the heavy stuff but now its seems the light guys can do well in the big stuff as well as they can depower the rig massively

bristollad
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:32 am
So I know you are a real person not a spambot please enter the middle number from the below list (i.e. 3): 3
Location: bristol

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby bristollad » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:37 am

my wish list for the boat if any up grades where to be made

carbon gantry
carbon rudder stock
carbon base plate for rudder pintle
and allow a carbon tiller
change pole end fitting to the 29er style


this would save so much weight and make the boat look pimp i also think a different profile boom instead of the heavy round one we have now (maybe a rectangle one tapering off at the rear) and all this could be added as and when and no advantage in speed

chriswrightlaser
Posts: 663
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:24 pm

Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby chriswrightlaser » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:08 pm

My vote will be for no change but if we do vote and the vote is for a new sail and mast then the old rig will still be legal to use, the current rig is fine to sail in up to 30knots of wind and in the uk we get light winds in general, so for best valve for your money we would be better off with the same lenth at the bottom of the sail but add the larger top section for better speed and more fun in the lighter winds, most skiff sailors will not go out in less than 6knots of wind and the boat is a pain in light winds, The handicap proves the point on this that light winds we are down the pan on the results but in a force 5 we win the races.
We could be like F1 racing in that you choose your tyres for the conditions expected, choose your rig, selden mast or new bigger sail for those dull light wind races.
This would make the Musto better value for your money as it gives a betted choice.
I think it is pointless to try and make the new sail the same speed as its always going to have advantages and disadvantages, once you have masterd the Musto the wind is very oftern too light to have the maximum fun unless you live by garda or down under. I would be happy to have two rigs like the D zero, aero , laser, RS600, RS300,RS100. it gives better value for your money to have choice.

Chris


Return to “Coaching, Technique & Technical Area”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest