Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Use this thread to share technique tips or ask questions of the experts. Also discuss boat modifications and rig tuning.
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Infinite » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:50 am

bristollad wrote:yea no need to worry at all there is going to be no new sail so your ok anytime soon not even a year down the line :D


So, a decision was made? I'm confused by bristolled's comment.

I was inspired to read this whole thread after blowing up my original main sail two days ago.
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Rick » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:55 am

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby duchonic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:24 pm

No new rig presented at Palma? Why?

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Rick » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:23 pm

duchonic wrote:No new rig presented at Palma? Why?



Because the builder sidelined the project given the range of opinion on various social medial channels.

We now have certainty and will vote on the prospect of a new mainsail at the end of this year.
Rick Perkins. GBR

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby duchonic » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:52 pm

Where can i find the flow chart Version 2.0 with impact of this social media?

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby Rick » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:03 pm

duchonic wrote:Where can i find the flow chart Version 2.0 with impact of this social media?


I have not updated the flow chart, the document linked above gives the full position; the situation is simple now.
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby maky » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:20 pm

I don't own a Musto Skiff, but I am very much interested in buying one, IF rig update actually happens.
From my point of view it is unlikely, because then most/all of the fleet would need to spend money on new one and I know how people are thinking.

But anyway, I wanted to share my thoughts, at least. Maybe someone would understand my point then.
When looking at the facts, MS is 18 years old design now. Its hull weight is 44kg and sailing weight 80kg. So difference of 36kg.
Lets compare that to RS 700, only one year "younger" design, which hull weight is 56kg and sailing weight 79kg. Difference of 23 kg only.
So that is 13kg (!!!) of a difference between those two designs.

So am I only one thinking MS has totally outdated, heavy rig, and it would be so much better, faster, and rewarding to sail with modern, updated, lighter design rig?

I mean think about it, it is almost 2018, and this is a chance for MS to become so much better and by far best and fastest design of all sh skiffs for many years to come.
20 years should be more than enough for updating to more modern rig. If not, then what we have here is new Contender, great design which is getting outdated.

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby PaulM » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:24 pm

Without going into the merits of the new / old rig debate, I would question whether you are comparing like for like on those weights. Both boats have carbon masts and similar sailcloth. I would be very surprised if the RS700 rig is only two thirds the weight of the Musto's.....

Looking at it another way a Foiling Mach2 moth states a typical a hull weight of 10kg and 30kg all up, so a difference of 20kg. That means that the RS700 must have a fantastic rig being only 3kg heavier whilst providing a 50% larger main and also a kite!

BTW, have you tried a musto? and what do you sail currently?
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby maky » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:34 pm

So you doubt official data which was also tested in sailing magazines because they aren't in MS favor, and yet you are posting completely irrelevant data of a hull/sail weight of a Moth!? Nevermind, like I said, I know fleet will be against update.
I just wanted to share my opinion and that is it. If it doesn't get updated, I will get other design to sail. Something will pop up, it is 21. century after all.

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby PaulM » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:04 pm

I am merely questioning if the RS700 and Musto weights are including the same equipment, as they are similar boats and construction. I believe the moth is relevant as this is a modern design so uses the latest technology, which you are saying we should be aiming for but if you feel this is wrong then I apologise.

If RS700 rig is lighter/superior as you say I am more than happy with it, I chose to get a Musto over a RS700 and have never regretted it, it is about the combined package; the boat, the people and the sailing.

The real question is will a new rig attract new people? And you seem to be a prime person for this thus my question. Have you tried a Musto, and what do you sail currently? Going further what do you want in a boat? If you are after what the 21st century has to offer what are your thoughts on foiling?
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby maky » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:18 pm

I don't think Moth is relevant at all. It is completely different design, boat, everything. It is as relevant as windsurf foil, Nacra foil, AC, TP52, or whatever other design using latest technology. If I cared about Moth or other than single handed skiff, I wouldn't be on this forum discussing MS rig. I tried to be very clear in sharing my opinion and was commenting on MS rig. I was comparing MS to a RS 700 because of similar boat design/type, and sailing weight. It was just to point out weight difference between 2 similar designs that are almost 20 yrs old. 13 kg is a lot, even if it isn't all in a rig. Spars are more advanced nowadays and lighter mast/boom/spi pole/racks etc overall, being same strength, could be produced. Mast with better bending characteristic that would go along with better powering squared top rig (as pictured on page 1), and depowering in higher winds.

I don't care about general MS / RS700 debate and which has better fleet, people etc. It isn't about all that too for me. For me number 1. is how advanced design is, all that other stuff that you are mentioning come along naturally. Both boats are very expensive to me personally, and for sure I won't be buying 2000. or 2001. design so I don't care which is better atm. If MS gets a modern, lighter and more efficient rig update, I will be interested in buying one. If not i will wait for something else.

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby skiffer » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:48 pm

maky wrote:So you doubt official data which was also tested in sailing magazines because they aren't in MS favor, and yet you are posting completely irrelevant data of a hull/sail weight of a Moth!? Nevermind, like I said, I know fleet will be against update.
I just wanted to share my opinion and that is it. If it doesn't get updated, I will get other design to sail. Something will pop up, it is 21. century after all.


The rigs are similar and will be a similar weight. If you want to know what a 700 weights put one on the scales, sometimes published weights of manufacturers classes are specified in ways that one wouldn’t typically expect.

How do you know the fleet would be against an update ? Seems there is a range of opinions here.

The breakdown of the weights is here. http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/wei ... akdown.htm

I don’t think a rig designed today could save much weight, which item do you think can be reduced in weight?

The spar, boom, sails and standing rigging weigh 16.2kg, do you really think the 700 rig is 13kgs less than that?

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby maky » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:42 am

That is funny. Similar weight you say and yet 13 kg of a difference. And I didn't say it is all in rig, still there is a significant difference. Classic MS / RS 700 debate, again completely off topic.
How do I know fleet would be against update? Pure logic. Those who are on top and updating everything are in minority. But whatever, this is all going in completely wrong and usual MS vs RS direction, so I will finish my discussion here. I gave my input and that is it.

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby skiffer » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:16 am

maky wrote:That is funny. Similar weight you say and yet 13 kg of a difference.


So you think a whole 700 rig is 3.2kg, now that is funny.

Go weigh a 700 and then you will know the facts. Even the simplest of sanity checks would tell you something is amis with your deductions or starting data.


maky wrote:How do I know fleet would be against update? Pure logic.


I think we can see the quality of your logic ...

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby GER443 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:17 pm

maky wrote:That is funny. Similar weight you say and yet 13 kg of a difference. And I didn't say it is all in rig, still there is a significant difference. Classic MS / RS 700 debate, again completely off topic.
How do I know fleet would be against update? Pure logic. Those who are on top and updating everything are in minority. But whatever, this is all going in completely wrong and usual MS vs RS direction, so I will finish my discussion here. I gave my input and that is it.


Maky, I appreciate your statement. I think the discussion shouldn't focus on comparisons to RS700 etc., instead we have to think about how to get more active sailors. I'm sailing the MS for 2 years now and my impression is, that active sailor numbers outside uk are slightly dropping. Even if the number of MS in the market rises the activity isn't doing the same. In this years events in Germany we typically had 2-8 participants and the eurocups outside uk were also low numbers. I love the MS but the low activity in training peer groups as in regattas is sad - especially for newbies.
I have 3 thoughts about the new sailplan:
a) if there would be a new mast/sail and the use of old and new rig would both be allowed in events, I wouldn't mind if the top20 (most of them update frequently anyway) had the new rig. In the second half of the fleet things are more about boat handling, strategy, capsize avoidance and improving starting.
b) i think if we want to grow we shouldn't question class members only but question a wider number of potential sailors in classes that might lead to a MS (Laser, 29er, 49er, Int14, ...). The point of view of potential MS newbies might be very differnt to ours.
c) i would love to have a test setup at one of the major events as soon as possible. sailing might show us the way faster than discussions.

Tim GER443


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