Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

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John Evans
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Proposed New Mainsail / Mast / Rig - Merged topic ...

Postby John Evans » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:57 am

After the very interesting discussions at Carnac last week concerning the development of the mast/rig, I sketched out a new mainsail profile to get an idea of how a more modern style mainsail would look on the skiff.
The assumptions I made were
1. The area should not be significantly different to the existing.
2. The mast position and length should remain the same.
3. The boom configuration, and lever system to remain the same.

That is there should be no real change in the main components of the rig.

The sail sketched out has approximately 4% increase in area. The centre of area is approximately the same longitudinal position, so balance should not be affected. The centre is around 300mm higher. The foot length is approximately 500mm shorter.

Some of initial thoughts are:

Possibly slightly higher heeling moment, and perhaps may be more difficult to pull the sail out of the water when capsized.

Has a higher aspect ratio and theoretically is a more efficient rig.

Will have slightly lower mainsheet loads.


I think the new proposed main looks more modern, but is it more efficient, only a trying one would answer that!



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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby Rick » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:23 am

With the short boom do you think it would be possible to walk around the back during tacks and gybes rather than ducking under?
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby Daniel Henderson » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:51 am

I don't think we quite want to go that extreme with the head and the reduction in the foot. The big head is a bit draggy and will be more prone to pitch poling.
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby andyrice » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:52 am

With the Square-head top, will the mainsail be as competitive for as long as the current sail? Maybe the RS800 sailors could answer this.

I think the new sail would need thorough testing to ensure it has a decent shelf-life. That's one of the great things about the Musto Skiff currently. All of the kit retains a good level of competitiveness for a long time.

As to stepping around the back of the boom during manoeuvres, good party trick, could be amusing to watch. Maybe swing directly from one wing to the other on one trapeze line!

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby Rick » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:57 am

andyrice wrote:Maybe swing directly from one wing to the other on one trapeze line!


I like the sound of that ... although I don't think the line would do much for the leech profile ...
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby Rick » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:59 am

andyrice wrote:I think the new sail would need thorough testing ...



Whatever happens this will be a sailor lead imitative and a thorough testing phase will be required; then a member vote.
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John Evans
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby John Evans » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:11 am

I agree with the comments made, the correct route would be to make a sail and test it at club level in a range of conditions.
The question really is if we want to make this sailor driven, how is this development funded, and how do we kick it off and manage it?
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby Rick » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:17 am

John Evans wrote:I agree with the comments made, the correct route would be to make a sail and test it at club level in a range of conditions.
The question really is if we want to make this sailor driven, how is this development funded, and how do we kick it off and manage it?



John, I believe at the sailor meeting Chris from Ovi's said he was happy to develop the rig but the final decisions rest with the class ...

No doubt he will comment on this topic in due course.
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby sten » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:53 am

I think the problem with a square top main will be pitch poling when hoisting the kite.
other classes leave the helm out on the wire so the main can be pinned in, to stop the head of the sail pushing the bow down.
This would only be a problem on windy days with a short chop.

Our sail plan does look dated when we sail with the other classes my be a change of sail cloth would make it look better without a performance change

The Original boat for the trials had a bigger main, we have the mid size. is there any feed back on how it handled the breeze?

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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby Daniel Henderson » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:34 pm

am i right in saying that we aren't looking at a new main until the class test/vote on the new mast? we are probably years from a new sail.
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby Besty » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:10 pm

If the boat was designed today, it would no doubt use most up to date technology with stiffer masts, more efficient rigs, probably lighter a lighter hull, and with a T-foil on the rudder, maybe even fully foiling.
In my view, the boat is fantastic as is, still looks great, and has nothing to really rival it. I see no reason to change unless there is universal agreement to do so. As soon as the characteristics of the boat change, then money needs spending to upgrade older boats, and those who opt not to end up in the second tier league. I don’t see this as necessary at this point of the classes life.
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby Rick » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:41 pm

Daniel Henderson wrote:am i right in saying that we aren't looking at a new main until the class test/vote on the new mast? we are probably years from a new sail.


Any change would have to go through a cycle of design, test, review, repeat ... and then a member vote so yes it will not be a short process but then we want to make sure we make the right decision at the right time ... so likely to be a while; yes ... but if change is to be considered then you have to start at some point ...
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby rme » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:20 pm

I would like the class to contact a leading sail designer to explain the difference of a flat top sail over the current design pin head.

My understanding is that a same size flattop would benefit the lightweight helms as it is easier to depower "drop the top off" in breeze when the kicker cunn are applied. So a same size flat top sail would be more controllable in breeze unless we made it slightly bigger so there fore benefit to lighter helms.

this is what a flat head is, is it not? rather than just looking cooler.
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby DanV193 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 pm

The Musto is a brilliant boat as it is, think very carefully before changing it.

Any change of this scale should start with a very clear idea of WHY. What benefits do you hope to gain. I am sure that your discussions of Carnac must have covered the 'upsides', but it is not obvious from this thread. The potential downsides are...

If you make a change to the mainsail that affects the performance of the boat, you will de-value everyone's current investment, require all the competitive to pony up for a new sail and for a few seasons create a haves and a have-nots fleet. You also potentially change the character of the boat, perhaps favouring heavier or lighter sailors, make it harder to hoist the kite in waves and run the risk of affecting the loads on the rigging and thus the longevity of the boats.

The RS 200/300/400/800 Fleets decisions to change their sails doesn't seem to have boosted their numbers, and to me they look like lipstick on a pig.

Cosmetic changes to the mainsail (like changing the sail colour) might be worth considering- I have always felt that Musto fleets aesthetically lack 'presence' and 'mass' because the sails are all translucent and the hulls are white. If you can get the same sailcloth in a coloured version (black with yellow-tinted windows) that would be cool, but you might also consider making red/ grey/ yellow/ blue hulls.

Although I am currently not sailing a Musto, I imagine that sooner or later I will be drawn back in. :) I read the forum after all.
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Re: Proposed New Mainsail

Postby DangerBoy » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:26 am

Would someone elaborate as to why the sail is dated and needs changing; wasn't especially clear in Carnac, I could understand if there were changes to the mast, but overall i'm not sure what its missing.
Mark


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