Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

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andyrice
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Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby andyrice » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:53 pm

What should be permitted and what should be banned, when it comes to lower shroud adjustment?

There's a thread on the GBR Facebook page that sparked up out of someone advertising an unwanted set of adjusters for £230. Bearing in mind that the standard Sta-masters are £138 on the Ovington site, this is a lot of money.

So why pay more? Because I hear that the Ronstan and Bluewave (?) options are designed to be able to adjust when the rig is under tension. This would allow you to change settings between races, but using a piece of kit that is quite a bit more expensive.

So what do you reckon? Do we need a tightening up over the rules governing this part of the boat? Or are things OK as they are?

I prefer keeping the boat simple and cheap, even if it means less adjustability on the water. I'd like to see this question asked on the next class survey.

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Rick
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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby Rick » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:54 am

One point of note that most probably don't notice ... between races at a championships Paul & I often spend the whole time helping people out with problems ... usually a minor breakage, drink & food, kit change or broken tiller extension.

During these gaps there is quite a lot a chaos and quite a few collisions as people relax and stop looking where they are going...

If you add into that a number of people going forwards adjusting their lowers then I can just see more problems.

In a 49er you can get your crew to adjust the lowers; but we don't have a crew ...

I think we'd create more unnecessary problems.

Sailing is expensive enough without allowing more expensive equipment to creep in which is pretty much unnecessary.

I'd be in favour of the standard boat being supplied with some sort of screw adjuster in preference to the multi holes rig adjuster that no-one uses and then adjust the rule to restrict to only the supplied part only.
Rick Perkins. GBR

duchonic

Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby duchonic » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:56 am

German and Swiss fleet are really happy with the Bluewave for challenging and changing wind condition.
I don't have the exact statistics but erveryone from Germany or Swiss can say that there was no increase in boatcrash over the last 4 years...

My personal opinion is that the Musto once on the water offers very little options to trim.
So i am really happy with this little device to change tension of the lowers during racing.
Huge impact on the kicker!
(Both german world champs used it)

Regards

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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby Rick » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:06 am

duchonic wrote:German and Swiss fleet are really happy with the Bluewave


Have you a link to the part that is being used?

Is it this one?

http://www.proboat.co.uk/item.asp?dep=8 ... rod_id=780


This is the one is most common usage:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/selden-stama ... ter-dinghy

It is cheap but cant really be adjusted under load.
Rick Perkins. GBR

duchonic

Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby duchonic » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:29 am

the expensive one

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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby Rick » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:25 pm

duchonic wrote:the expensive one


Here is one retail ...

https://www.jimmygreen.co.uk/item/55404 ... ing-screws

SO they are double the price of the Selden Sta-Master.
Rick Perkins. GBR

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paul manning
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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby paul manning » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:38 pm

Rick

Yes, that's the one.
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Rick
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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby Rick » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:06 pm

paul manning wrote:Rick

Yes, that's the one.



OK - so is that a standard part on the 29er & 49er?
Rick Perkins. GBR

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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby RUS213 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:48 pm

I would add: I just returned from Musto Skiff German Open (Starnberg See) and I noticed that indeed SUI/GER Musto Skiff boats are with these Bluewave turnbuckles on the lowers - and all the guys are really very happy with them. And yes, it seems that these Bluewaves are standard equipment for 29ers shrouds (all 29ers were with them).
I wanted to buy them from local Ovington dealer, but his office was closed at the last day of regatta.
Finally, today I ordered 2 pairs of these Bluewaves for my both boats directly from Ovington UK.
RUS 479 - ARKAS

timhill
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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby timhill » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:53 am

I think we should stop the blue wave being used and write the rule to say no on water adjustment of any standing rigging. Tolerating the blue wave adjuster will change/is changing the way the boat is sailed.

The boats are supplied with a rack system, which cannot, under any practical circumstances, be adjusted on the water. The sta-master is allowed as a replacement and could be adjusted on the water but likely after adjusting under tension the screws would strip. Although they can be adjusted, it's unlikely they will be.

And now we have the Blue wave, which can be adjusted - and it's a critical adjustment - and is being adjusted on the water between races. I watched the winner in Palma adjusting his lowers between heats and will get some blue wave adjusters and do the same unless the rule is changed.

And why stop at the lowers? Why not replace the racks on the shrouds? Then, all of a sudden, you'd have a fully adjustable rig. Looking at other boats with fully adjustable rigs, it's likely rig tensions would increase, putting more stress on the hulls with a slight improvement in performance, especially upwind in strong breeze.

To me this isn't the spirit of the boat - we're supposed to be one design - keep it simple, keep costs down, keep the emphasis on simple sail controls and boat handling.

I'd like to see the rule changed to make any on water changes to the standing rigging illegal.

Cheers

Tim.

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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby Rick » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:04 pm

timhill wrote:I think we should stop the blue wave being used and write the rule to say no on water adjustment of any standing rigging.


We already have this rule:

C.9.3 STANDING RIGGING
(a) MODIFICATION, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR
(1) Standing rigging shall not be adjusted while racing.

I'm not sure it is possible to write a rule to restrict what happens outside of the racing; I am sure Rob could advise ...

timhill wrote:The sta-master is allowed as a replacement and could be adjusted on the water but likely after adjusting under tension the screws would strip. Although they can be adjusted, it's unlikely they will be.


Trying to adjust a Sta-master on the water under load would just mash the threads ...

timhill wrote:To me this isn't the spirit of the boat - we're supposed to be one design - keep it simple, keep costs down, keep the emphasis on simple sail controls and boat handling.


I think this is the key point.
Rick Perkins. GBR

duchonic

Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby duchonic » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:43 pm

The key point will be some "spirit of the boat" than "provide equal competition for a wide range of crew stature", funny

Maybe some facts, roadmaps, transparent decissions and a measurer would help more than a spirit!

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paul manning
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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby paul manning » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:33 pm

An open question

Is it felt that a sailor needs to adjust their rig on the water to remain competitive if wind conditions change?

If so, does this not therefore mean that if every sailor has the ability to change their lower shrouds, then this is no difference to nobody being able to change their shrouds?
Paul Manning
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duchonic

Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby duchonic » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:29 pm

If the boat offered nothing to adjust, what would be the ideal stature of a sailor in 20kn of wind?
65kg or 95kg?

As mention above, i personally think that adjusting the boat helps to provide equal competition for a wide range!

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Re: Lowers Adjusters - should the rule be changed?

Postby DangerBoy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:44 pm

If the boat offered nothing to adjust what would be the ideal stature of the helm in 6 knots of wind.... 65 or 95 kg

You can always twist the argument
Mark


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