C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Use this section to ask any questions over current class rules or to make suggestions over new rules that may be worthy of consideration.
Serega
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Serega » Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:49 pm

I think even if the start line feature was accurate it shouldn't be the reason to forbid all devices that provide such function.
It should be enough to add a clear list of the GPS functions that are allowed to be used during racing. This will go well inline with other sailing rules that rely on honesty and good nature of sailors. Besides, those displays are huge and are not easy to hide especially during the start when people are so close to each other and can protest you for cheating and this would be such an embarrassment that I don't think anyone would ever try this.

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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Daniel Henderson » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:20 pm

Its also really obvious when you go to the pin end, walk to the front of the boat, bend down and press your GPS, then go to the committee boat and do the same. Does anyone else have any thoughts on it?
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby sten » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:55 pm

Not sure how many starts GPS can help you.
winning and end usually is the best start and can easily be done without GPS
mid line the GPS would help but no more than a good transit
I think boat on boat tactics and your strategy for the first beat are far more important part of the start.
just being on the line isn't always the best place to be especially if the boat next to you is over and covered.
wind readings from the top mark would be handy though so some control of electronic equipment is needed.

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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Rick » Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:25 pm

The challenge with writing rules to control / allow technology is that the tech moves faster than the rule making process and the rule pretty soon gets outdated as is the case here.

I think some of the core values that make our class successful are:

1) Simplicity; the boat is simple and avoids complex bimbles and equipment. This makes the boat easy to own and race on a level playing field.
2) Affordability; the MPS must offer the most affordable high performance sailing of any class

Based on these two above items I think it wouldn't be a good thing to see boats loaded up with expensive and complicated electronics; however times move on and we have always been keen to embrace new stuff where necessary.

I think carrying a GPS has many benefits for post race analysis; with regards to speed I think boat on boat observation is perhaps much more useful and speed can be impacted by small changes in pressure and sea state meaning getting obsessed that you are not hitting the speed numbers may just serve to be misleading.

But; if people want to use this tech I don't see any reason why the rule wouldn't move to reflect the features of current devices.

Remember ... for inclusion of this in the sailor survey put your specific suggestions into your national rep.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Chris Henderson » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:54 pm

If you also look at rule C.5.1.(4) it says Maps, charts and means of recording courses and compass headings. Are also permitted. As the committee boat and pin end of the start line are part of the course this rule in my reading of it allows it to be recorded so start line technology is allowed. I am looking at the wording on how I think a jury will read the rule if a protest was made but would like other comments if people agree.

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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Rick » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:39 am

Chris Henderson wrote:If you also look at rule C.5.1.(4) it says Maps, charts and means of recording courses and compass headings. Are also permitted. As the committee boat and pin end of the start line are part of the course this rule in my reading of it allows it to be recorded so start line technology is allowed. I am looking at the wording on how I think a jury will read the rule if a protest was made but would like other comments if people agree.


I think the key word in that rule is "recording"; those GPS devices that tell you your position relative to the start time are doing far more than just "record" which is what the rule specifically permits.

Anyway, technology moves on and we need to develop the rules to move with the times ... I expect there will be some suggestions coming in for the survey.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby paul manning » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:25 am

Good to have the debate here. Dan can I ask you to send a message to Ben asking that this question is added to the survey. Please be specific, so a question can be formulated.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby PaulM » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:45 am

I know a few people are wearing gps watches sailing now a days.

I dont know the specific models people are using but it would not suprise me if somone had a "Garmin Quatix Nmea Marine Gps Sport Watch" which if you look at the specs has a start line function.

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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Rick » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:00 am

PaulM wrote:I know a few people are wearing gps watches sailing now a days.

I dont know the specific models people are using but it would not suprise me if somone had a "Garmin Quatix Nmea Marine Gps Sport Watch" which if you look at the specs has a start line function.

Paul


People also sail with Smartphones which have apps that can do start line prediction.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby DangerBoy » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:42 pm

Serega wrote:I think even if the start line feature was accurate it shouldn't be the reason to forbid all devices that provide such function.
It should be enough to add a clear list of the GPS functions that are allowed to be used during racing. This will go well inline with other sailing rules that rely on honesty and good nature of sailors. Besides, those displays are huge and are not easy to hide especially during the start when people are so close to each other and can protest you for cheating and this would be such an embarrassment that I don't think anyone would ever try this.


To be honest after the worlds I learnt very clearly that just being able to be in the front row of the start line wasn't anywhere enough on its own anyway - still the sailor needs to be accurate with their trigger pull and be aware of what boats around them are doing.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby DangerBoy » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:45 pm

PaulM wrote:I know a few people are wearing gps watches sailing now a days.

I dont know the specific models people are using but it would not suprise me if somone had a "Garmin Quatix Nmea Marine Gps Sport Watch" which if you look at the specs has a start line function.

Paul



I recall Ben being being very happy with his and telling us his speeds... until it disappeared to the bottom of Datchet :)
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Serega » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:51 pm

PaulM wrote:I know a few people are wearing gps watches sailing now a days.

I dont know the specific models people are using but it would not suprise me if somone had a "Garmin Quatix Nmea Marine Gps Sport Watch" which if you look at the specs has a start line function.

Paul


I have one Paul. Unlike the one you used the start line feature there is an absolute joke. I tried one in my garden - it kept me busy wondering from one end of the garden to another chasing the 'start line' that would madly move in all directions :lol: The GPS is also something special - at least 5 s delay and very inaccurate. Even the countdown timer has a surprise in it occasionally freezing for a few seconds then waking up after the starting signal :evil:
Whoever wants to buy one - don't!

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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby PaulM » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:23 pm

Mark let's wait till the Datchet tide goes out a little further then we can get Ben's watch back as by the seems of things it worked far better than Serega's.

I think we should put this to vote, technology is moving all the time and this is coming whether we like it or not. Anyway if people don't think it is that helpful then why limit the GPS options people have as Daniel says.

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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Rick » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:22 pm

PaulM wrote:
I think we should put this to vote, technology is moving all the time and this is coming whether we like it or not. Anyway if people don't think it is that helpful then why limit the GPS options people have as Daniel says.

Paul Molesworth


The challenge is given the range of options what exactly do people want to vote on?
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby paul manning » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:50 am

I'm aware of another class which does not permit GPS of any sort, it then becomes a problem for the event equipment inspector (measurer).
How can he prove whether the competitor had the watch or device on the boat when they were racing? From the Olympic experience, the only way this will hold up in a protest is for the equipment inspector to check boats as they finish or have time stamped photographic evidence. This is because, once ashore, it cannot be proven that a support boat didn't pass them the piece of equipment after racing...

I think that you also need to consider that very few people in the class actually use a GPS for racing purposes. If carried by the sailor, they are most likely used for post race analysis for course etc. However, I expect by the time you reach the windward mark first time in a 1nm beat, and as Mark and Richard have indicated that you've actually got off the line clean, then you'd know whether you went the right way or not and therefore the GPS will only be telling you something you already know...
If you were racing on courses with a 5nm beat and there was time for unknown tidal influences to take effect, or land effecting the wind, then clearly this would be different!
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