C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Use this section to ask any questions over current class rules or to make suggestions over new rules that may be worthy of consideration.
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C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby paul manning » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:59 pm

The current wording is -

GPS device showing only information relating to heading, speed, VMG, bearing, current or elapsed time.

This rule was added a few years ago but the development of GPS products has meant that a large number of designs cannot now be legally used as they have features not listed in the rule.
Do we think this rule needs reviewing to permit these latest features as it currently restricts the sailor from buying a majority of current designs?

An example would be the start line feature.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby DangerBoy » Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:52 pm

I think that the rule current covers plenty - i certainly wouldn't be an advocate of something that has the start line feature on that basis that a good start is fundamental to a good race. Those that can afford a device that does that then have an immediate advantage over those that do not.

For example a speed puck costs around £275, yet the start line function Pro-Start is £450 - is this an arms race you want to start?
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby justo » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:22 pm

What I think is:
1- actually the only one device you can buy with the rule is the puk from velocitek, if you have already any other GPS you have to spent more money and velocitek have the monopoly for Musto class.
2- if GPS puk desappears of the market, what we can buy?
3- at the present there are GPS that have all functions but you can program only the legal functions for the class. Are those GPS legals? Or you have to buy a puk for racing?
4- the start line function is not very useful in Musto because if you have the GPS in the front of the mast and you have to push the bottom to record the two pins for the start line with more than 10 knots and waves its almost impossible to do it.

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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Rick » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:41 pm

I rule that allows only the device of one manufacture isn't healthy ...

For example my Garmin 310XT can show many more things than is permitted by the rule.

Perhaps the rule needs to list what is not permitted and then any simple GPS that complies will be fine.

I also suspect that in fact no device would comply with the current rule as I am yet to see a GPS that can't display your position and that is not on the list in the rule.

Rule needs revision.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby justo » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 pm

Hi dangerboy, your argument I think its do not have sense because there is always somebody that can buy more sails than others and that it is an advantage, you can't limit the number of sails or boats somebody can buy.

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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Rick » Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:29 pm

justo wrote:Hi dangerboy, your argument I think its do not have sense because there is always somebody that can buy more sails than others and that it is an advantage, you can't limit the number of sails or boats somebody can buy.


Buying lots of sails would give no advantage (well very small) but having complexed expensive GPS equipment that makes starting easier could give advantage.

I don't think we want our racing to become too expensive for no reason ...

Anyway; GPS is today cheap so we need to re-work the rule but we also need to think if we want dinghy sailing to become an instrument driven sport or a more of a sailor feel type of competition.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Daniel Henderson » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:19 am

Hi Guys, I have just been taking a look through this thread trying to decide on GPS units and taking a look at the market the only 1 you can buy that has a compass and speed is the Velocitek SC-1. The unit is about 10 years old and very large and heavy, and i don't think its great that the rules restrict you to 1 manufacturer and a very out of date bit of kit. I see that this is something that might be looked into as you have mentioned above Rick.

I currently have the Novasail 360 wireless which has a split screen and you can see compass and speed at the same time. It does however have a start line function and i have emailed Novasail to see if it is possible to disable it.

Is this likely to be voted on soon?

thanks
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Rick » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:47 am

Dan,

The class survey will run at the end of the year; if you have something you'd like to see included then make sure you have briefed your national committee rep ...

May also be worth having a chat with the class equipment inspector first ... :wink:
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Serega » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:09 pm

Daniel Henderson wrote:... It does however have a start line function and i have emailed Novasail to see if it is possible to disable it...

Hi Dan, have you actually tested the 'start line' function? From my knowledge in many devices it's absolutely useless with worse than 10 m accuracy (maybe it's another story in the US, but I think until the Galileo system is up and running we shouldn't have to worry about the feature)
btw, are you back to Musto sailing? :)

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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Daniel Henderson » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:55 pm

I might possibly be Serega :roll: I have never really used it and i dont intend to use it on the musto however because it has the "start line function" on it, it technically means i cant use complete unit on the boat.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Rick » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:57 pm

Do we think any of the current units have accurate enough positioning to make the start line function useful?

If it was accurate do we think it should be allowed?

Does it de-skill starting or would it help to reduce general recalls?
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby paul manning » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:16 pm

We had a Velocitek on the yacht I sailed.

The startline function was extremely accurate, in fact, we had to calculate the true distance of the device to the bow to include the angle the boat typically lined up at on the wind as we initially found we we would have been OCS. I'd say it was accurate to around 2m.
I recall the Melges 24 fleet started using them and found they had far fewer general recalls.

So as ever, it is really up to the class...

Out of interest Dan, do the Moth fleet use the startline feature, or is it simply part of the system they use?
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Daniel Henderson » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:45 pm

In the moth we were allowed to use anything and the nova sail is a great bit of kit. Some guys use the start line function however I wouldn't trust it doing 16knots pre start and being within a few boat lengths of the line. The nova sail and velocitek are around £500 but due to having the split screen you can have compass on the top and speed on the bottom so if you have a tack tick and you then buy a velocitek then you are spending the same amount roughly. I'm not saying that the class should allow the start line function as I think it takes the skill away from the sailor however it is a shame that there is only 1 unit that is allowed due to the class rules and it is a very old bit of kit.
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Rick » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:24 pm

So having used these bits of kit Dan what are your thoughts on how this should develop?

What would you allow?
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Re: C.5.1 (a) (3) - Portable equipment

Postby Daniel Henderson » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:21 pm

There are a few ways of looking at it. I think that the class should try and be as current as possible to be appealing to people looking in. With the current rules it only allows 1 unit that is very old and i wouldn't now go out and purchase that bit of kit. i think there are some very nice pieces of equipment on the market that i think suit the class however because they have so many functions now, if 1 function isn't allowed by the class then it rules you out of using that unit. I really don't think the start line technology is precise enough to worry about. I have had it for the last 2 years and never wanted or really needed to use it.
The 1 thing that i have found really useful is to see your speed all the time as it only takes a few seconds of concentration loss to loose significant speed without really realizing it, and if you know the numbers that you need to hit it is a good way of bringing you back on track.
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