touching racing marks

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DangerBoy
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touching racing marks

Postby DangerBoy » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:42 am

At the GBR nationals a few weeks ago we were lucky enough to have some umpires observing for rule 42 compliance . One of their comments was that while we had no problems with rule 42 there was a lot of mark contract that was ignored, not by all I add, I spent ages trying to do a 360 in 27 knots of breeze on the first day!

If people are willing to pretend they didn't touch a mark or unwilling to protest those that do, are we at a point where we need to think about the penalties in our SI for it (like the RS classes)?

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Mark
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Re: touching racing marks

Postby Rick » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:38 am

DangerBoy wrote:At the GBR nationals a few weeks ago we were lucky enough to have some umpires observing for rule 42 compliance . One of their comments was that while we had no problems with rule 42 there was a lot of mark contract that was ignored, not by all I add, I spent ages trying to do a 360 in 27 knots of breeze on the first day!

If people are willing to pretend they didn't touch a mark or unwilling to protest those that do, are we at a point where we need to think about the penalties in our SI for it (like the RS classes)?

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Mark
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I don't think there was loads of people hitting marks; I didn't see any, although clearly Chris saw at least one ... I hit mark and did a 360; that is the game.

Hitting marks in my view is the start of lawlessness and is bad news. If you are allowed to hit marks people start trying to barge into gaps that are not there by trying to push the mark aside; this also leads to people getting hooked up on the ground tackle creating more carnage.

In addition it creates problems when people get into bad habits and return to club & open handicap events and start hitting marks giving the class a bad name.

The RRS should not be messed with via sailing instructions.

If you see someone hit a mark tell them so and protest.

The worst case of rule breaking I saw at the nationals was two Datchet boats bumping off each other at a leeward mark, have a bit of an argument and then both sailed on and did nothing. :wink: Should we allow boat on boat contact?
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Re: touching racing marks

Postby DangerBoy » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:00 pm

Given the number of boats leaving Stokes Bay with holes in them and only one actual protest you could argue that we do that already!
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Re: touching racing marks

Postby Rick » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:02 pm

DangerBoy wrote:Given the number of boats leaving Stokes Bay with holes in them and only one actual protest you could argue that we do that already!


Well I guess penalty turns were done if no protests were lodged :wink:

I did one penalty turn (Andy Rice :evil: ) and one penalty turn for hitting a mark :cry:
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Re: touching racing marks

Postby paul manning » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:15 pm

We witnessed one sailor hitting a mark, which Chris saw too.
He handled it very well post race.

Note that knowingly hitting a mark and not doing a penalty is likely to result in a protest committee giving a DNE. In a big fleet, this effectively ends any chance of the competitor getting a good overall result.

I'm not aware of any other sailor (apart from Frithjof when his trap line snapped and he retired) hitting any mark.

Damage to a boat doesn't necessarily require a protest, only if there is doubt as to the person at fault. But also note rule 44.1(b)

I've asked Noble Marine Insurance for clarification of their policy requirements and will respond here when I hear back.

Changing the standard ISAF rules should only be done with great care and consideration and permitting mark hitting in one class is not considered to be a good idea as it often roles out into other classes the individual sails. As an example the umpires at the Endeavour Trophy are often protesting sailors from classes where this is permitted and their answer is always to say that they are allowed to do it in their class...
Competitors need to be honest and take a penalty if they have broken a rule. Don't forget it's your responsibility to take a penalty and you shouldn't need another competitor to ask. That said, if sailors don't, then other competitors shouldn't leave it...
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Re: touching racing marks

Postby DangerBoy » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:40 pm

paul manning wrote:I've asked Noble Marine Insurance for clarification of their policy requirements and will respond here when I hear back.


That's going to be interesting, certainly Noble are more "noble" than others who seem to be quick to shift responsibility if there is a get out clause. One of the reasons I've stayed with Noble for so long.

Re. Touching the marks, I took the discussion to be much more than one boat hence the original question. Most people only do 5 or 6 events a year, if they can't deal with changing back to normal sailing rules I would suggest they have greater troubles!
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Re: touching racing marks

Postby paul manning » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:05 pm

As promised, I've spoken to Noble Marine Insurance and they've confirmed that an insurance claim does not require a protest hearing judgement for a claim to be processed.
Typically good insurance companies will pay out to the policy holder irrespective of blame and then if necessary negotiate with another insurer (if the other boat is insured with another company) over who is at fault as part of their daily trading.
This is then used as part of the policy holders insurance history and therefore contributes to how much the individual pays for a policy.
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Re: touching racing marks

Postby PaulM » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:01 pm

From my experience the worst thing to do is leave it to the insurance companies to negotiate, as they will just decided whatever is easiest, which will be most likely be you are both at fault for not avoiding a collision. Then you both pay excess!!!!

I even had a clear port / starboard that they wanted to share this way , when I was clearly at fault! It took a lot of time to get them to change their mind and it is not nice being the boat in the wrong when the other guy is struggling to get his insurance company to fight his corner.

For me you need to get it clearly agreed at the time, either by between the two boats (and maybe a 3rd party) or if you are unsure then by formal protest. This is the only way you can be sure that you get to put your position across.


With reference to Rick's comment about two datchet boats hitting. It could have been a certain NON Datchet boat who nudged me round the mark, he apologised and we sailed on, no turns. Yes I should have made him do turns and yes he should have just done them but sometimes we are just too nice to each other.
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Re: touching racing marks

Postby paul manning » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:35 am

You are certainly best to get any incidents facts presented to the insurance company and ideally agreed with the other party.
The protest isn't a binding decision for the insurance companies, so it is possible that even with a protest outcome, the insurers may decide the decision is incorrect. This would be similar to an appeal situation for an individual but as with an overturned protest by appeal, I expect it's not common.
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Re: touching racing marks

Postby Rick » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:07 am

PaulM wrote:With reference to Rick's comment about two datchet boats hitting. It could have been a certain NON Datchet boat who nudged me round the mark, he apologised and we sailed on, no turns. Yes I should have made him do turns and yes he should have just done them but sometimes we are just too nice to each other.


LOL it was not you Paul :wink:
Rick Perkins. GBR


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