c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

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c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby bristollad » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:28 pm

will boats be weighed at national and euro events? regarding section c.6.3 and c.6.2

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Re: c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby Rick » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:14 pm

last time we did that we discovered all the boats (87 weighed) were all pretty much identical in weight and between 1 & 2 kgs over the minimum which was largely down to how damp the boats were or how much extra pimping had gone on ... Ovi's quality control is such that it seems a pointless exercise.

If it looked like someone had done something stupid like sand all the gelcoat off I am sure the measurer might dust off his scales but otherwise I think it would be a waste of time at an event...
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Re: c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby bristollad » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:55 pm

but why have a rule regarding weight if the boats are not weighed at every nationals and euro event ? i am guessing other isaf classes do in fact i know fireballs do
and there has to be some difference from a 14-15 year old boat to a 2014 in fact i would put a tenner on a new musto skiff rigged dry being under weight

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Re: c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby bristollad » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:03 pm

alos there is a continuity error in the 2008 up to 2013 rules its says the boat has to be 82.5 kg rigged dry with sails up in the 2014 rules its says rigged and does not state anything about sails ????

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Re: c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby bristollad » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:18 pm

also there is nothing on ovi website to say that there is a total rigged weight with sails or with out its just gives you a hull weight at 44 kg the rigged weight is not the in user manual so as a one design class do you take the the builders word for it that its at weight ? because as far as i am aware no certification comes with the boat and up to now there has been no weighing process ?

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Re: c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby Chris Henderson » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:32 am

Please post my tenner to ------. Fireballs are weighed as they come from many different builders who are all aiming to make a boat underweight and fit correctors so you need to check each boat. The original min was 80kg but having weighed all boats at Garda it was found that this was to low so we upped the weight to just under the lightest one. If I felt a boat had been altered in some way I would check it. It may well be that we will again weigh all boats in Garda next year to check things haven't changed. If you would like your boat checked let me know and we will arrange for you to drive to Essex and I will do it.

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Re: c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby bristollad » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:42 am

Haha no boats have been weighed yet chris so i will keep my tenner
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Re: c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby Rick » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:32 am

bristollad wrote:also there is nothing on ovi website to say that there is a total rigged weight with sails or with out its just gives you a hull weight at 44 kg the rigged weight is not the in user manual so as a one design class do you take the the builders word for it that its at weight ? because as far as i am aware no certification comes with the boat and up to now there has been no weighing process ?


The class rules are owned by the MPSCA i.e. the members not the builder.

A breakdown of the weight is here:

http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/wei ... akdown.htm

bristollad wrote:alos there is a continuity error in the 2008 up to 2013 rules its says the boat has to be 82.5 kg rigged dry with sails up in the 2014 rules its says rigged and does not state anything about sails ????


You rig your boat before you go racing; if you want to race without sails then go for it :?

You need to read the ERS http://www.sailing.org/documents/equipm ... /index.php

The words in bold are defined in the ERS; a "boat" is defined and includes sails ... see C.6.1 Boat

bristollad wrote:but why have a rule regarding weight if the boats are not weighed at every nationals and euro event ? i am guessing other isaf classes do in fact i know fireballs do


The rules is there to prevent anyone doing something stupid to gain advantage such as sanding off all the gel and then painting the boat ...

If you go to a Laser worlds you will not see the boats being weighed. They rely on the quality control of the licensed builder. A class like the Fireball has many builders and even home builds so they have a reason to check these multiple builders.

My experience of weighing at championships in Olympic classes downwards is it is a complete waste of time as the boats are typically wet or are holding some moisture which can add 1 or 2kgs to the weight. In our class where we weigh all up I would expect the moisture, salt & dirt to add significantly to the all up weight.

The only really meaningful weight is the weight measured at the factory just before the boat gets delivered to the customer. I believe Ovis have a recorded hull weight of every boat ever built.

Weighing at an event is a PITA for all concerned; I'd rather be sailing at Garda than standing in a queue in the baking sun to find out my boat is not underweight.

But if people feel it in necessary to weigh all boats I am sure Chris would oblige ...
Rick Perkins. GBR

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Re: c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby bristollad » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:45 am

So if ovi build a boat and they weigh and its under weight what do they do?? You would be silly to think every boat is the same surly ? My old foils where so much heavier then a new set so where does that stop ? Just out of pure curiosity we should weigh a new boat which we have a datchet and the oldest competeing boat which we have at datchet

Also there is still the continuity error in the 2014 isaf rules regarding c.6.2

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Re: c.6.3 and c.6.2 weighing of boats

Postby paul manning » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:16 am

Hi Jason

Firstly, it's good to see class members asking questions about their class and far better that these are clarified rather than getting to a regatta and not having time to explain to a satisfactory level...

Ovington maintain a data sheet of every hull built before it leaves the factory and the classes technical committee has access to this information. We know to 0.5kg what every hull weighs and we know what has changed in the components.

As you say, we know the method of foil production changed and we know when it changed.

To answer your question, Ovington Boats do not fudge data, it's simply not in the businesses interest and the method of producing the hulls is such that it is actually quite difficult to build hulls that would be under or excessively over weight.
As an example, I work with another high quality international boat builder and they produce a boat that weighs 1760kg. The assembled mouldings vary by less than 8kg and as a double check the boats are swung to ascertain their centre of gravity. To do this requires 3 digital stop watches working simultaneously and an average of the three to 100th of a second is used.

So no, Ovington Boats wouldn't just say the boats OK and let it go, 1st because it's their reputation and 2nd because the laminate spec. Now, that's not to say other builders work to these tolerances.

You are correct to think that it would be naive to think every boat is the same weight, there is a tolerance which the technical committee accept as a realistic function of production. This is based on the weight of the independent mouldings (not the finished hull), otherwise you could have a scenario (like some), where a hull and deck are matched to get the correct weight...
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