Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

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chriswrightlaser
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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby chriswrightlaser » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:24 pm

It looks like he has the main uncleated into the tack, in photo 4 he has had to move his hand to the end of the tiller extention to keep the main pinned,then as he slides his hand down it will let the main out? not that we are spending hours looking at your tack :roll:
If you cleat the main and tack like I do you have to grab the main sheet and let it off as you go through, both ways work but you have more control if you keep the tension on without it cleated.
looks like some more days just doing tacks coming up again.

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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby Bruce » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:53 pm

chriswrightlaser wrote:It looks like he has the main uncleated into the tack, in photo 4 he has had to move his hand to the end of the tiller extention to keep the main pinned,then as he slides his hand down it will let the main out?


Hi Chris,

Yes, I uncleat it just before I pass the mainsheet to my back hand at the beginning of the tack. I start going into the tack with my mainsheet in my back hand and then in photo 5, you can see that I have swapped to my front hand (to stop the main going out). I know that others prefer tacking with the mainsheet cleated, but if you get it wrong then you will be swimming!
Bruce
GBR534

chriswrightlaser
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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby chriswrightlaser » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:47 am

The moving of the hand up the tiller while keeping the main pinned for speed using the leach to help the boat head up,also he steering at the same time this must take some practice, picture 3 to 4, Sten just walks across the boat, I have done this once in two years with the rest of tacks ending in a swim, the one I did was just so good, no pain on the knees and very fluid, just proves it can be done.
This is the first time we have footage of a second way tack for us to try, Stens way is for the advanced training, Bruces way is for the advanced but looks like more people could do it after good training, I walk to the back of the rack on the trapeze first, Bruce starts from the middle of the rack, he then comes in moving towards the back, from the back of the boat I walk across/forward using stens steps, Sten goes across the boat, I take the longer step from the back, this takes the pain way from the knees as you just walk through like Sten. it is hard to tell if Bruce just walks through or puts much weight on his knee, us oldies have nackerd Knees form 30 years of laser sailing, so have to keep off them now, I always think back instead of tack to make sure I start from the back or the rack, more space under the boom their.

As for the forcast this weekend at Stokes bay, I have sailed in the snow this time of year in the past so will not moan at sunshine and summer temperatures with a great crowd of sailors with a great view of the solent, still looks like a great weekend to me.

out of control on a tack Chris :lol:

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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby SELSBowbitch » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:27 am

I think Bruce is eluding to the method that mssrs Peake, Perkins and myself use when we keep the main cleated. Basically we ease a couple of inches of sheet and re-cleat it (gives a bit of leeway and depowers as you enter the tack) then drop the sheet over the rack in front of the trap elastic (stops it getting caught up in anything as you re-pick it), as you cross the boat uncleat with front hand and ease the sheet to a comfortable point and then switch into back hand, sit on the rack, hook on, sheet on and go.

This method is really good and works in all conditions so that you don't have to adjust your technique for the conditions.

This is the technique that I coach and I usually have people practice sailing without the sheet in their hand first so that they are comfortable in the entry phase. I think I've got some before and after footage of Griff Tanner somewhere which shows it brilliantly (I'll try and find it for you tube), he couldn't tack without being on his knees and ending up in irons but was bloody quick in all other areas, we changed it and about 6 weeks later he was in the top 10 at the Euros in Garda!

Worth trying both, I have tried Bruce's and Stens but settled on Rick's method.
[color=#0040BF]Graeme

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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby Serega » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:49 am

if anyone missed, two sequences there: Bruce vs Andy
http://www.photoskiff.com/sailing/stokesbaytr09
unless he's changed, Andy seems to do it very much the same as Bruce, no dropping of the sheet before tacking
I do mine I think closer to what Graeme is saying with the difference that I don't ease off the main before tacking

chriswrightlaser
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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby chriswrightlaser » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:54 am

I use that method when trying to tack on training days, I make sure all the main is thrown in the boat before I go in,well in, the mainsheet can get caught on the kite pully if you are untidy, the sheet must be inboard of the pully, I was in front of Sten in one race at Grafham after a bit of luck on the left hand side of the beat and he must have bad start, we ended up near the lay line on the right on port tack so both had to tack, about in the top four boats, 10 boat lenths from the first mark, sten was 4 boats lenths below, I said to myself I must put in a good tack or I will get in Stens way, after all he has given me lots of free training and do not want to slow him down, I did a crash tack and missed the mainsheet, I ended up on the side :oops: so he had to sail around me, sorry Sten, he was far enough away to not have to worry too much but if it was any other boat than Sten then I would not have messed up, this goes to prove its all the head, slow tacking is faster, a slower tack means you tack quicker in the end.
If you have a very good dvd player you can go through Stens tack on very slow pause, 1/50 second play, his tack is still the best so far.

PS went sailing last night, now in the dog house for try to sneek off today as well, red ears now on no brownie points at all, nice wind at Carsington :cry:
Chris

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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby andyrice » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:29 pm

Amazing info, and photo sequence, thanks Tanya, Bruce and everyone.

Almost looking forward to attempting my next tack (which I have been dreading lately!)

A question for Graeme and any other top dogs:

To uncleat or leave main cleated - what's the benefit of leaving it cleated because as Bruce points out there is the danger of a capsize.

I assume there must be a benefit, otherwise you wouldn't do it. So what's the benefit of keeping the mainsheet cleated going into the tack?

Thanks

Andy

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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby chriswrightlaser » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:53 pm

"I said to myself I must put in a good tack or I will get in Stens way, after all he has given me lots of free training and do not want to slow him down, I did a crash tack and missed the mainsheet, I ended up on the side so he had to sail around me."
That is why, if you put a bad tack in you just take more time if you uncleat before the tack, if you keep it cleated and miss the mainsheet you swim.
Not a top dog but trying in more than one way :lol:

by the way, I miss Ed's sail, It was nice to be able to look for it arond the course, how life changes, can I make one for myself now?
Last edited by chriswrightlaser on Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

skiffboy
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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby skiffboy » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:55 pm

Keeping the main cleated heading into the tack must surely help initiate the turn - so using less rudder. And also, keep as much speed as possible heading into the tack - resulting in not using as much rudder.

We had a similar discussion at Bruinisse last year when Ian came over for the coaching. His first comment was 'well actually nobody really tacks like that...'. Anyway, his was basically the same as Greame's only not easing any before the tack, just throw the mainsheet into the middle of the boat and collect it on your way through.

I'd be really interested in hearing the Aussies break down their tacks - especially with them all using the tacking sticks. I saw Marcus had a quite distinctive style on the entry but was never close enough to be able to break it down.

Looking forward to actually be able to practise some of this instead of sitting around thinking about it.

Edit: Sorry Andy, I'm hardly a top-dog. I can bark like one if it makes you feel better though? :)

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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby SELSBowbitch » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:26 pm

Correct Skiffboy...

Andy -Same principle as a tack in any boat, having the main on helps you into the wind and allows you to use less helm to turn. it also makes the radius of turn smaller as if you ease the main going into the tack you will then have to bear away as you go into it to keep the boat balanced, therefore making a wider turn. This is critical in 8-30kts, same problem, same fix.

Having the main cleated going in will not capsize you, not easing it as you go across the centerline will though but you have more chance of capsize if you uncleat and ease it going in as you'll almost definately go into irons and fall over trying to reverse.
The main reason for dropping it over the wing is to stop it getting tangled round things in the boat (and yourself) and it also elevates it off the deck to make it easier to re-pick as you cross the centerline.
[color=#0040BF]Graeme

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Re: Stokes Bay Training - 2/3 April 2011

Postby DanV193 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:53 pm

I tack the same way as Bruce, but suspect that ultiamtely Rick, Andy, Graeme's way is better. I try and keep the main in as tight as possible while entering the tack (just as Bruce is doing in the photo sequence), but inevitably as you move your arm towards the centreline the mainsheet goes out slightly.

As long as you transfer the sheet quickly to the new front hand you can keep enough tension on to prevent the main going out too far and creating drag (which is sure to end up with you going into irons).

So in summary, a tack using a cleat is the best for maintaining mainsheet tension in the early phase of the tack, but I am scared that I may occasionally not pick it up and uncleat it in the latter phase thereby ensuring a wet exit.
Dan Vincent
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